Posts by Doug Mason

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

Doug Mason

Hi Sylvia,

I presume by "I do not believe this teaching" that you are confining that comment to the Watchtower's attitude concerning Adam and Eve.

While I appreciate your poetry, it does not address my question, inasmuch it simply asserts that: "He paid the price with his own life". To whom was the payment made? If God demanded it, what does that say about God?

I hesitatingly suggest that your understanding is known as "The Penal-substitution Theory", also as the Judicial (Juridical) Model of salvation. This idea is derived from Bishop Anselm of the 11th century which was then modified during the Reformation.

This judicial model is typical of the Catholic/Protestant tradition and I suggest that your Orthodox friends (Greek - Russian, etc. - the Eastern Churches) could find that idea strange.

For a description of the various Atonement models:

http://www.theopedia.com/atonement-of-christ

Doug

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

Doug Mason

Vidqun,

Thank you for that source, which I managed to locate. The context of your first citation continues with the following, to which your final sentence refers.

Doug

=================================

The first expression of this group, or the fourth in the whole number, is “to bring in everlasting righteousness.” After the entire setting aside of sin must come a righteousness which shall never cease. That [Hebrew text] does not mean “happiness of the olden time” (Bertholdt, Rösch), nor “innocence of the former better times” (J. D. Michaelis), but “righteousness,” requires at present no further proof. Righteousness comes from heaven as the gift of God (Ps. lxxxv. 11-14; Isa. li. 5-8), rises as a sun upon them that fear God (Mal. iii. 20), and is here called everlasting, corresponding to the eternity of the Messianic kingdom (cf. ii. 44, vii. 18, 27). [Same Hebrew text] comprehends the internal and the external righteousness of the new heavens and the new earth, 2 Pet. iii. 13. This fourth expression forms the positive supplement of the first: in the place of the absolutely removed transgression is the perfected righteousness. (Biblical Commentary on The Old Testament, Keil And Delitzsch (1884), on Chap. IX. 24-27, page 343)

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

Doug Mason

Thank you for your help. I have saved them to my computer and I will work through them.

The early Church taught that Jesus "redeemed" humankind from Satan and similarly that the "Ransom" was a payment made to Satan in order to obtain the release of his captives. These understandings are no longer accepted.

So I wondered how people today and the Watchtower explained this payment of a "redemption" or of a "ransom". The latter is of course especially significant for the Watchtower and it has been the cause of major rifts in the past.

While it is helpful to access references such as dictionaries, I wonder whether people have thought through these personally. In other words, how I do "redeem" something and how do I pay a "ransom"? Are these the practices of 2000 years ago?

Doug

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

Doug Mason

With respect to Christ being the "Redeemer" and of having "paid the Ransom", I would like to know:

(1) What is your technical understanding of each term?

(2) What is the Watchtower's understanding of each term?

I am not looking for the list of verses that employ each term. I want to know how one "redeems" and how one "pays a ransom" and how Christ achieved these.

Thanks,

Doug

13

No atheist could possible hope to win an election in today's political climate, BUT.....

by James Mixon in

not taxing churches is taking as estimated $71 billion from our economy every year.

watching one of the late night talk show and the host mention how much dough we could have to help the poor if the churches were taxed.

i check to see and i b-damn, mormon church spends 7% of its annual income on charity, the average for churches are 29% to help the poor.

Doug Mason

Australia recently had a female atheist Prime Minister living in a de facto relationship.

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

Doug Mason

Does God "save" on the basis of the accuracy of one theology, eschatology, and soteriologogy? If so, what is the pass mark?

Is God a Christian? Or does he apply a different set of questions for other religions? How does he cope with the variety of beliefs between religions and within any religion?

Or is it all a means for the minority to manage and massage the minds of the majority?

Doug

27

A chapter on The Trinity

by Doug Mason in

as i work my way through the history of judaeo-christian salvation, i have drafted a chapter on the trinity and early christology.

as before, i am seeking corrections, advice, and suggestions.. the chapter is available at: http://www.jwstudies.com/formative_christianity_s_christological_combats.pdf.

while preparing this chapter, i realised that i am not looking at the "evolution" of soteriology.

Doug Mason

irishdub,

The first person that comes to mind is Origen, who spoke about universal salvation, even for the Devil. If you want to explore his ideas further, try Googling with:

Exclusivist or universalist? Origen the 'wise steward of the word'

While I was out walking, I was thinking of you and your "keep me in your prayers, I'm a sinner".

I wonder if religion is providing you with inner peace or whether it is the cause of torment. The idea of "you are a sinner" is one element of a powerful model employed by the few to control the masses. They play on two fears --(1) a person's recognition of their inadequacies (join the clan!) and (2) the fear of the consequences when God either intervenes or one dies.

Their model then says: (1) you are lost to God and in danger of eternal damnation (2) We are the only people who can show you the way to solve this problem, so come and join in with us (3) You are continually reminded to go back to step #1 ("you are lost ... etc.").

I suggest to you that every morning, before you hop out of bed, you tell yourself - aloud, if possible: "I am not a sinner. I do not fear death. I will enjoy today and make every effort to make the world a better place".

Doug

27

A chapter on The Trinity

by Doug Mason in

as i work my way through the history of judaeo-christian salvation, i have drafted a chapter on the trinity and early christology.

as before, i am seeking corrections, advice, and suggestions.. the chapter is available at: http://www.jwstudies.com/formative_christianity_s_christological_combats.pdf.

while preparing this chapter, i realised that i am not looking at the "evolution" of soteriology.

Doug Mason

snowbird,

It IS my intention to make people think, and to think for themselves, away from ideas imposed on them by others.

I am not concerned whether a person agrees with me or not. What matters is that each person is honest to themself and that they resopect the rights of anyone else to their views. Otherwise the mental consequences can be too much to bear. I want the right to have my views; hence I must extend that right to others.

Throughout history up to today we see what happens when people do not respect the rights of others to have a different religious outlook. Christianity was torn apart by its internal wars of the 4th and 5th centuries, and when tens of thousands were killed during the Reformation period, and today such as with Ireland and with fundamentalist Islamists. When has religion brought peace? Secular society is bringing the churches (and the Watchtower) to account over the sexual abuses they tolerated in order to protect their organisations.

Doug

27

A chapter on The Trinity

by Doug Mason in

as i work my way through the history of judaeo-christian salvation, i have drafted a chapter on the trinity and early christology.

as before, i am seeking corrections, advice, and suggestions.. the chapter is available at: http://www.jwstudies.com/formative_christianity_s_christological_combats.pdf.

while preparing this chapter, i realised that i am not looking at the "evolution" of soteriology.

Doug Mason

thewonderofyou,

Are you prepared to keep in touch with me by email? If so, my address is in my Study. I guarantee that I never disclose communications or any personal details.

I am about to embark on a Chapter dealing with the soteriology of the Church's first few centuries. When you look at my overall Draft Study, you will see that I have drafted a Chapter on Anselm, who dreamt up the idea (based on his medieval culture) that Jesus' death compensated for the death that a believer should have experienced because of their sin.

Prior to Anselm, the Church followed Origen, who said that the death of Jesus was a ransom payment to Satan. With the Watchtower's "ransom" theory, I do not know who they believe the "ransom" was paid to.

Regarding the idea of the worth of Jesus' "blood" that you raise, again it is a matter of understanding idiomatic usage, as you point out. In this case, the term "blood" simply means his "death". With Jewish writings, poetry consists of paralleling ideas, whether as agreements or as contrasts. Off-hand, I cannot recall the precise reference, although I think it is in Romans, where the term "blood" is paralleled with "death".

Note, however, that this is Paul's take on salvation. His focus is totally on Jesus' death and resurrection. His need to emphasise this shows there were others who had a different focus. I think here of the Johannine community, which wrote that God gave his son (speaking of the birth, not the death) so that any who believes will be saved. John focuses on the life of Jesus ("I am the way", etc., which Jesus probably did not say) not on his death. John does not places the "this is my blood/body" within the context of the Passover.

You will see my understanding of the Johannine community at my Draft Study.

Doug

27

A chapter on The Trinity

by Doug Mason in

as i work my way through the history of judaeo-christian salvation, i have drafted a chapter on the trinity and early christology.

as before, i am seeking corrections, advice, and suggestions.. the chapter is available at: http://www.jwstudies.com/formative_christianity_s_christological_combats.pdf.

while preparing this chapter, i realised that i am not looking at the "evolution" of soteriology.

Doug Mason

snowbird,

Was Jesus not a normal human?

Was he a pretend human?

Doug